Honda Elite 80 - no spark

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Honda Elite 80 - no spark

Postby Breaze » Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:49 pm

Hi all,
I recently acquired a 2003 Honda Elite 80 with only 766 miles on it. It is marked as flood damaged on the title so I knew I might have my hands full. The plastics look great - cleaned carburetor - engine turns over fine (not sure about compression yet.

My problem is electrical - can't get a spark to the plug. So I started my tests:

I ran all these tests from the ignition control module and then again at each component with same results although initially I got a valid secondary ignition coil reading at the control module but was not able to again.

Regulator/Rectifier resistancewithin limits
Alternator resitance within limits (can't do voltage test without running)
Ignition coil primary slightly high - should be .1 - .3 and was .4
Ignition coil secondary will not register (between plug cap and coil)
Ignition switch ok
Ignition pulse generator ok
Exciter coil at 740 - should be 800 - 1200
resistor ok

I'm new with electronics and I hate to just start buying parts - I'm leaning toward a new ignition coil - not sure about stator (exciter coil). I don't have a flywheel remover so I haven't even looked behind it though it is somewhat rusty.

One other thing, without a kickstart, I have been using the old battery and jumping it with my car battery - is this a mistake? I hate not being able to kick it for tests.

I bought a multimeter and read up on its usage in order to do these tests, but I have no experience interpreting the results - any advice/help would be appreciated.
Breaze
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re: Honda Elite 80 - no spark

Postby scout » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:30 am

Congratulations. Finally someone who take a little initative and trys to troubleshoot, even gets a multimeter and reads the instructions. My hat it tipped to you!
Sounds like you are on the right road, the coil does look suspicious. Did you test from the plug cap or remove the plug wire from the coil and test from the electrode? Some are removeable some are not. They are molded in place.
An easy way to get the flywheel off is to borrow a puller from one of the auto parts places that lends tools. Some PB Blaster to loosen it up for a day or so before.
Keep hunting. You will find the problem.
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re: Honda Elite 80 - no spark

Postby supercub » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:01 am

There is probably a 1000 ohm resistor in hte plug cap. I have had them fail on me. Unscrew the cap from the wire and check the cap for resistance. If you luck out here, it's only a 3.00 part.
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re: Honda Elite 80 - no spark

Postby Breaze » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:14 pm

Yee-haw, it was the coil, actually the plug cap. the wire does not come off of the coil - it is molded into place, so I took the plug cap off and the resistance without it was right where it should be (thanks for the suggestion). So I replaced the cap with one off of a parts bike I had and I can't tell you how good those blue sparks looked.

It cranks now and runs but I am waiting on filters and a battery before putting it all back together and tuning.

Since I have your attention, looks like Honda has progressed (I might say regressed) from good ol' manual chokes to what they call a 'fuel enrichment thermal valve' - I suffered through the auto choke by-starter system on my old 81 Express SR and now I'm worried about this new electronic version. Anyway, the service manual and parts diagrams show an o-ring at the base of the valve but I am missing that o-ring. Honda wants over $30.00 for a carb gasket set - they are cheaper on e-bay but the picture only shows 1 o-ring - I'm assuming it is for the manifold connection.

Any idea how important that o-ring is? it seems to seal well without it but...
Breaze
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re: Honda Elite 80 - no spark

Postby oilyhans » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:53 pm

well get yourself one . i think most the o rings that go around
fuel are made from nitril or something that won't dissolve in it.
but try a good hardware/home store that has lots of
faucet parts/o rings , take the enricher with you to
check the size .

i found this place for a friend a couple weeks ago &
these guys have some pipes for the ch80 if your
looking for more power..eer
https://ssl.perfora.net/www.battlescoot ... 62648%3D29
later of course when you get your scooter running ..

oilyhans
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re: Honda Elite 80 - no spark

Postby supercub » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:35 pm

I brought a carb kit for a Honda on ebay, it was garbage. Also clone Honda carb parts were junk too. For gas you need urethane o-rings, the ones in hardware stores fall apart after exposure to gas. Best is to surrender to the Honda parts guys and pay the big money for the real stuff. Bring the parts with you and when you pick up the special order, have them there to compare, because they don't admit fault for getting the wrong ones and then they charge a big restock fee.
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re: Honda Elite 80 - no spark

Postby Breaze » Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:01 pm

The latest - still hoping:

Removed the flywheel - cleaned everything and put back together - only odd electrical reading I have now is with the coil - both secondary measures are within range, but the primary still reads .4 resistance when it should be between .1 and .3.

It cranks right up now and once it gets past the initial rough idle and warms up it idles ok - but fluctuates, occasionally increasing speed on its own. It will hold idle, but any attempt to accelerate bogs out.

I checked the resistance of the auto by-starter - it was within range. I also tested it by hooking it up to the battery and making sure it heated up and the needle went out another 1/8 inch or so - I have not done the extensive compressed air test to make sure it shuts off the gas flow completely.

I do not have a tachometer for a 1 cylinder motor but with the engine warm and the idle where the back wheel is barely moving, I checked the timing and it seems to be advanced of the F-mark.

I have 2 other CDI modules I've tried with no change - I have 2 other by-starters I will try, but I am wondering what would cause the advanced timing.

My best guesses are the by-starter or the coil - any other suggestions?
Breaze
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re: Honda Elite 80 - no spark

Postby oilyhans » Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:28 pm

is there a F & T mark? could be its hitting the T.
was the scooter real warm before you adjusted the idle?
could be your running rich, kinda like the choke is on..
you really don't want the rear wheel to turn much if at all

also, adjust the valves just for gp's , most 4t's can use it
you can tell sometimes by putting your hand near the end
of the tailpipe and if the exhaust gases are so hot you think
your going get burned the exhaust valve might be open too long.
any starting problems? not firing on the first couple of revs
of the starter motor can mean valves need adjusting too.

make sure all your grounds are clean and have good contact.
along with that all harness connectors are tight and the
wires are pushed in.

fyi; i know the tests you made are key on only, but just for others
reading this..when testing with a meter, i've found some digital meters can give false readings when around a electrical generating field
like a magneto/stator.

oilyhans
Adly, TGB & TNG Scooters
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re: Honda Elite 80 - no spark

Postby Breaze » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:34 am

Didn't have much time yesterday, but I did clean all the grounds and checked connections. I had already adjusted the valves - it was a first for me and it took forever to get it right (at least I hope it was right) - was not able to get the feeler gage thru at all when I started but got it thru with a slight drag when finished on both intake and outtake.

I also pulled the top of the carb and checked out the diaphragm- its a 2003 and best I can tell the needle does not come out although there is a hole in the top plug that I hooked a wire in and tried to pull out - not with too much force. The diaphragm seems to have no tears or holes but does fold over easily at the top losing its cone shape. Not sure how it seats - there doesn't seem to be a groove to seat it in but it goes right to the edge of the wall and the top seems to sit down on it without pinching.

It cranks more reliably now with the battery holding charge and I was able to lower the idle to what seemed a smooth, low idle and the timing checked out right where it should be. It still will not accelerate though.

Today I plan to pull the carb along with another I have on a 97 Elite 80 parts bike and see if I missed something in the cleaning process - I'm hoping to see how the diaphragm is seated in the other one and compare.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Today I plan to
Breaze
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re: Honda Elite 80 - no spark

Postby maddog » Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:57 am

Go to www.jacksscootershop.com click on honda info center, this guy has every common problem connected with your scoot and how to take care of it.
Some people dream about speed! blink and im gone!
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